#death has to come after messmer

[eldintower]

melina messmer resurrection & the frenzied flame brief post

death mask helm - "Helm of Wego, elder among the Fire Knights. Two warped death masks stacked one atop the other. (...) Gnawed at by loneliness, the old man turned his attention to the spirituality of Messmer's flame, using it in a rite of resurrection."

ember of messmer - "Serpentine, cord-like ember, (...) A remnant of Messmer's flame, the symbol of the crusade, it continues to smolder as if crawling across the ground."

Messmer and Melina as the cosmic causality of Flame -> Death / Death following Flame

theory: melina as Death (ash) is sealed by Resurrection (ember). The association of the three fingers and flame and the sigil of messmer's flame resembling the outline of the frenzied flame. Pic related

notice how the spiral or rather the space it silhouettes within the frenzied flame is absent from messmer's. i think that's melina

now onto the meat of this, so idk why i made this one post but whatever. no yes I remember cause I wanted to reiterate that connection between messmer and frenzy. i've been thinking about how the frenzied flame is much more present throughout (key word here) the lands between as opposed to the concentration of it within the abyssal woods, cause like of all the places to run into frenzy you'd think it'd be the land subject to messmer's crusade, but then i realized that's it. i think in a sense the frenzied flame's niche is already occupied. the realm of shadow has already been subjected to flame. it's already burnt. it's still smoking. messmer's flame burns body and soul alike. it scorched everything. the lifeless land of the lord of frenzy

[space-blue]

A Radical Messmer Theory

OKAY so hear me out.

I think we're all on top of things regarding how much Marika used to care for Messmer despite the embivalence of their relationship.

On one hand you have the OP healing vials she created for him and him only. You have his love and dedication to her. You have her taking his eye and giving her a seal that both locks the serpent but also hides the fact that he is GRACELESS.

Then you'll have things like how he hates his flame and tried to be rid of it, yet was clearly made to fight with it, in her name. How he wishes for hate and resentment to come to him and not her, yet she seems to have abandoned him.

BUT CONSIDER THIS!!

What if Marika sealed him away to keep him safe?

Because... If you are of the opinion that Marika has orchestrated the entire thing. That she exiled Godfrey and his people asking them to come back stronger because she was laying out a plan... That she hooked Ranni up with numen warriors to engineer Godwyn's death, then broke the Elden Ring purposefully...

And then took her punishment and set out to *wait* for the Tarnished to return and free her from the control of the Elden Beast...

Then it's possible that she veiled Messmer and exiled him to protect him FROM US. From the Shattering War.

After all, we can completely skip the DLC. Killing Mogh is completely optional. And the only reason we enter the shadow realm is because Miquella has discovered something of the gate of divinity and has been cooking up a plan for ages as well.

Miquella got thwarted and has been forced to wait in stasis until someone killed Radahn AND Mogh for ages. The moment he does, we have the opportunity to enter and follow, and because of that we have to kill Messmer.

But Marika's grace leads the way! you argue. Not until a certain point though, and most importantly: once Miquella is on his way to become a god (partially through your actions freeing the tower from shadows) then he becomes someone you need to kill because he's threatening the old order.

Marika is gambling on us, and when Miquella rises, she leads the way towards us defeating him and his consort, and then back to the main purpose.

But there's no reason to go kill Messmer. And if we don't, we can easily stipulate that Miquella's happy go lucky band of misfits also wouldn't have managed to bring him down, trapping Miquella's soul in the of shadows, once more in stasis waiting for a hurdle to be overcome for him.

It makes sense then, that the land of shadows, all considered, is the safest place for one of Marika's children to be. Out of the way. Without a great rune. He protects something she wants to keep secret, but maybe the secret itself protects him.

She sent him on that crusade around the time she married Radagon. Everyone theorises she wanted him out of the way to either have his true nature hidden out of shame or to protect him from backlash at the time, but imo she sent him to seal him away because :

1- she knows he's endlessly loyal and devoted

2- it gets her revenge underway and keeps her secrets

3- it gets Messmer out of the public eye in the moment

4- it keeps Messmer SAFE from the dark shit she's got planned that will wreck the lands between.

The Messmer most beloved son theory! The good Tarnished doesn't play the DLC, or does just long enough to run around but leaves Messmer alive and Miquella forever blue balled.

[blasphemousclaw]

Do you have any ideas on the Messmer / Fell God and Melina / Gloam-Eyed Queen links? Are these Demigods sort of reincarnations of those guys? Or their curses? Or sort of karmic comeback for Marika killing both? Or maybe one thing for one and another for the second one?

(I lean towards the third option *voice of a guy who can't shut up about Marika wanting her and her Erdtree to live forever and discovering she could not deceive fate after all*)

OHHH BOY was this a difficult and confusing topic… there are just SO many unexplained parts of Melina and Messmer’s lore that I feel like I still can’t make sense of how everything fits together, but I did come up with some connections that felt really compelling to me, and I think I agree with you on the third option!

starting with Melina, I’ve decided that I don’t think she’s the Gloam-Eyed Queen or an aspect of her, but rather that she and the GEQ are similar because they both have their own separate connections to Destined Death…

so the first thing I did was go through literally everything we know about her — Melina tells us that she was “born at the foot of the Erdtree,” and that her mother (Marika) gave her her “purpose,” which is the reason she lives, “burned and bodiless.” She finds out later that her purpose serves to aid in passing the thorns blocking the entrance to the Erdtree… basically, the purpose given to her by Marika is to burn the Erdtree!

Then, there’s the link between igniting the Giant’s Flame and seeking Destined Death…

“The one who walks alongside flame, Shall one day meet the road of Destined Death.” (Melina’s dialogue in her final cutscene; also in the Blade of Calling description)

“Flame” in this situation is represented by Melina — the kindling — and after the Giant’s Flame ignites, we’re transported to Farum Azula to confront Destined Death. Which means that Melina’s purpose as kindling is in some way intrinsically linked to Destined Death? don’t ask me how

Destined Death is also a part of Melina’s being: its power is sealed behind her eye, marked with a symbol that looks like a beast claw:

and if you do the Frenzied Flame ending, then the seal on Melina’s eye will fade and her eye will open, revealing a violet iris:

I think that Melina’s Destined Death eyeball was sealed with a beast claw symbol because Maliketh was the sole keeper of the Rune of Death; only he and those loyal to him can use its power… and Melina is certainly not someone Maliketh or the Two Fingers would trust with Destined Death. And, the reason why the claw symbol fades and Melina’s violet eye opens in the FF ending is because it’s the only ending where she’s still alive after Maliketh is killed and Destined Death is unbound.

I still can’t say for sure why Melina has an inherent ability to wield Destined Death, but my best guess is that it’s tied to her purpose being a sort of “hard reset” on the Golden Order… burning the Erdtree and unbinding Destined Death. I get the sense that Melina is very much like, “engineered” by Marika in order to fulfill her specific purpose… I think the fact that she’s even guiding us in the first place was Marika’s plan, because Marika also makes Hewg forge us a god-slaying weapon; she WANTS us to get inside the Erdtree and beat up the Elden Beastie! Melina even has some dialogue where she acknowledges that she’s following her mother’s plans, but she’s not just following them out of obligation, she really does believe in what she’s doing for her own reasons:

“There is something I'd like to say. My purpose was given to me by my mother. But now, I act of my own volition. I have set my heart upon the world that I would have. Regardless of my mother's designs. I won't allow anyone to speak ill of that. Not even you.”

“I have long observed the Lands Between. This world is in dire need of repair... and Death...indiscriminate... Are you prepared... To commit a cardinal sin?”

back to Destined Death… I think there’s some connection between violet eyes and wielders of Destined Death, because in addition to Melina, obviously the Gloam-Eyed Queen had purple eyes, but so do Maliketh and Blaidd:

Maliketh is the keeper of Destined Death, but Blaidd also wields Destined Death as a “Baleful Shadow” manifested by the Two Fingers!

if this link between purple eyes and Destined Death is intentional, then the fact that Melina has this in common with Maliketh and Blaidd as well as with the GEQ makes it less likely to me that Melina is literally the GEQ, and more likely that this is just a trait they all share. Overall, I just got the sense that Melina was so strongly tied to Marika and her plans and has enough of a unique identity that I don’t think it adds all that much for her to ALSO have been the GEQ who was killed and brought back? but that’s just my opinion!

Now all that was confusing enough, but then I got to MESSMER… man… I am still so deeply confused about how Messmer’s fire and the Base Serpent interact (and what the Base Serpent even IS, for that matter). The “fire” and “serpent” concepts combine within Messmer, which makes his fire magic behave in a serpentine way, which made me think, well, does that mean that the Base Serpent and Messmer’s flame are part of the same curse? but then I decided that no, they have to be separate concepts within Messmer’s body, because the Base Serpent is “shorn of light,” and fire famously gives off light. who knew! Also, the serpent is said to be “eating away” at Messmer’s kindling… which makes it seem like maybe Messmer’s vision of fire is the reason why the Base Serpent targets him in the first place? because it’s a thing of darkness that eats light? maybe?

“The kindling that burned inside Messmer the Impaler. A dark thing, eaten away at by a wicked serpent. Burns the sealing tree said to be found at the old Rauh ruins.” (Messmer’s Kindling)

Messmer’s kindling burns the sealing tree, and it can’t burn the Erdtree. I think that the sealing tree, and the thorns entrapping Enir-Ilim, are supposed to be like, manifested from the Scadutree:

“The caster wounds their own flesh using impenetrable thorns grown from the Scadutree, which then sprout from the earth.” (Impenetrable Thorns)

The Scadutree is able to manifest shadowy, impenetrable thorns, so I think it’s fair to assume that the ones sealing Enir-Ilim are tied to the Scadutree. Essentially that means that Messmer’s kindling can burn the Scadutree, or at least some aspect of the Scadutree… which would make sense, because his sister Melina is kindling for the Erdtree, and the Scadutree is the Erdtree’s “shadow.”

“Messmer, much like his younger sister, bore a vision of fire.” (Messmer’s Kindling)

the description specifically compares Messmer’s kindling to Melina’s, so I think we are supposed to see them as kind of a duality! We have the Erdtree, golden, symbolic of Order, and then we have its shadow, the twisted Scadutree:

“The Scadutree is the shadow of the Erdtree. Born of dark notions that bear no sense of Order, that twist and bend its stalk, rendering it brittle.” (Remembrance of the Shadow Sunflower)

it almost seems like each sibling reflects the tree their kindling burns… Melina being gold, Order, light, and grace, with a purpose given to her by Marika herself; Messmer being graceless, choked of light, a twisted thing that bears no sense of Order, someone burdened by his curses who Marika tried to save, but ultimately couldn’t.

(my son who has every disease)

Now to come back to your original question yes I know none of that even answered it I would say the Scadutree is kind of characterized as the inevitable “consequence” of the Erdtree:

“Miquella the Kind spoke of the beginning. The seduction. And the betrayal. An affair from which Gold arose. And so too was Shadow born.” (DLC story trailer)

“Incantation originating from Scadutree avatars. Creates a hail of golden projectiles which are fired toward foes after a brief delay. This incantation channels the force of the Scadutree's power, and its gold is accompanied by shadow.” (Land of Shadow)

I kind of see the Scadutree as being representative of what falls outside of Marika’s Golden Order, the lands and people that don’t get to bask within the Erdtree’s golden light… like in the Shadow Lands, you’ve got the Crucible, the hornsent, and “all manner of death” washing up on the shores, “only to be suppressed” (the Golden Order famously being without Destined Death)… it’s like all the dregs of the Golden Order exist here. no wonder Messmer’s soldiers feel abandoned the longer they spend in this place without word from Marika:

“Sorcery of those who abandoned the practice of incantations after devout faith rewarded them with only despair. […] The image of the twisted Scadutree is an edict: Denounce their ways. Do them harm. For they have abandoned us.” (Impenetrable Thorns)

Basically, I think if something in Messmer’s being is meant to reflect the Scadutree, all this characterization of the Scadutree points to Messmer’s curses as being something karmic that Marika manifested, like you said… maybe Marika’s creation of the Scadutree and all it represents was “the original sin,” and Messmer is the one who suffers for it??

Finally, I think this is where the Fell God could come in… Melina can kindle the Giant’s Flame in order to burn the Erdtree… Messmer is also kindling… his flame could originate from the Fell God because the trait of red hair is explicitly linked to the Fell God. (why doesn’t Melina have red hair then?? don’t ask me why) Maybe their kindling abilities both originate from the Fell God, but Messmer’s was forced upon him as a curse, and Melina’s was Marika later using that same power for a purpose? Marika originally intended to kill the Fell God, but discovered she couldn’t:

“Tricksome shield made from white stone depicting a malformed one-eyed god. The barrel of a firearm pokes through the open mouth. Once worshipped by the giants, this evil deity is believed to have been slain by Queen Marika.” (One-eyed Shield)

“The Fire Giant is a survivor of the War against the Giants. Upon realizing the flames of their forge would never die, Queen Marika marked him with a curse. "O trifling giant, mayest thou tend thy flame for eternity."” (Remembrance of the Fire Giant)

Presumably, Marika was afraid of the Giant’s Flame’s ability to burn the Erdtree, so she tried to suppress it! But maybe, as a result, what she suppressed ended up manifesting inside her own son! With Melina, I guess she had a change of heart later on, and realized that burning the Erdtree could be a good thing??? did she know she would be imprisoned inside the Erdtree by the Greater Will??? was Melina meant to be some kind of failsafe??? DON’T ASK ME I DON’T KNOW

IN CONCLUSION… I don’t think Melina is the Gloam-Eyed Queen. I think she and Messmer are meant to reflect the Erdtree and Scadutree respectively, with the Erdtree being Gold/Order, and the Scadutree being Shadow/Disorder, a “consequence” of the Erdtree’s creation that exists outside of its grace. Melina and Messmer both inherited a “vision of fire,” perhaps from the Fell God… but Messmer’s flame could have been a result of that “consequence” of Marika’s actions, and Melina’s flame is something that Marika makes use of in the future! Messmer tried to reject his flame and it made him suffer, but Melina is at peace with her flame and accepts it. I wonder if this is representative of Marika’s early years of suppressing aspects of life and death (the Fell God of fire being one of those aspects, maybe?), but coming to accept change later on, helping us become Elden Lord in a world that has natural death again?

Is any of this like, verifiably true? absolutely not… with these two, I don’t think you CAN make any solid conclusions since there’s so much about them that just isn’t explained… I’m just trying to pull together disparate strings of lore into something that makes some kind of thematic sense lol

this became about WAY more than your initial question… SORRY

[val-of-the-north]

Tibia Mariners and Those Lost in Death

While I am at it, I should talk about a detail found in Messmer's Shadow Keep. On the way to the Specimen Storehouse, you'll be faced with a peculiar sight: boats lit on fire.

This seems to be a callback to Viking funerals, except the boats are placed in a row and burnt on land. It's certainly an odd practice, but it might only be done this way because Messmer's forces are far from an accessible shore or water that's deep enough to perform it normally.

However, something else caught my eye. The boats looked quite familiar so I went back to check and...

It was the EXACT model as the boats used by the Tibia Mariners! Perhaps it is obvious seeing as the Messmer boats are used in a funerary rite, but I think it's still quite a significant connection, especially since the old Mariners have gotten quite a bit of new lore in the DLC. In Charo's Hidden Grave we can find the skulls of boatmen as a crafting material, presumably that of previous Tibia Mariners.

This is outright confirmed after finding the lone Tibia Mariner in the area, who upon defeat drops the Tibia's Cookbook, which describes them as the oldest of grave keepers.

(Btw I love the detail of the piece of lace cloth and golden ornaments, they are the same found on the Mariners themselves. They even come with the same ghostly glow)

This is quite the revelation, as prior to Shadow of the Erdtree we had no way of knowing that these guys actually predated the spread of Deathroot and Godwyn's transformation into the Prince of Death. And how could we doubt that, since they even drop Deathroot themselves? But there was something that most people have neglected to note about the Mariners, me included.

In the base game, the Tibia Mariner found in the Wyndham Ruins drops a spell called Tibia's Summons. This inconspicuous sorcery of the servants of death actually holds a perplexing description which mentions a group known as "Those Lost in Death".

There was something seemingly redundant and unexplained about these guys. What does "Lost in Death" mean? Why aren't they simply called "Those Who Live in Death"? It wouldn't blame anyone for assuming that this description just contains an outdated term for the undead before they stuck with the one used in-game. However, through the Tibia's Cookbook, we find a NEW reference to this same concept.

Roughly the same title (Those Lost in Death = one lost in death), the same underlying sentiment, and we have verifiable proof that the Tibia Mariners are outright ancient... so what's the deal with this? Well, I have a theory.

The descriptions of these things hint at the fact that the dead have been wandering for a very long time, and that they are in need of leadership. Before the DLC, it was easy to assume that the undead were simply a result of Deathroot, and the game seemed to suggest the same thing by stating multiple times that it was the origin of Those Who Live in Death...

... but that's the thing! Prior to Deathroot connecting them to Godwyn, the undead amounted only to shambling corpses. They were not LIVING in Death, but simply LOST in it, which is how the Mariners were able to control them in ancient times through the use of sounds, both their horns and the Calls of Tibia. It's only through the guidance of a lord, in this case the Prince of Death, that they found an identity and new life.

It's likely the undead waned in the era of Marika because of her elaborate Erdtree burials and general control of life and death. Heck, the figure of Rosus, who guides us to the Catacombs, must have also played a big part in their disappearance. His axe has a similar power to the Tibia's Summons and it's called Rosus's Summons. Its description also mentions that the dead easily lose their way, meaning that Rosus was meant to lend the dead a guiding hand. "Those Lost in Death" would be lost no more.

Without people Lost in Death, the Mariners kind of lost their purpose and vanished for a long time... until the Shattering and the rise of Those Who Live in Death of course. It might mean that the only reason they hold onto Deathroot is because it attracts and connects the new undead.

I guess Godwyn was meant to be a sort of "lighthouse" for all undead. He would make sure they never lost themselves but also that they would be allowed to live instead of being forced back to rest like with Rosus and Marika. Him being a "lighthouse" also fits the marine theme that all this death business is going for quite neatly I think...

But to return to what started this... maybe those boats lit on fire are Messmer's way of making sure the soldiers of his army aren't lost to death after their passing. A way to give them a proper rest the way Marika would have wanted, even though he is limited in what he can do about it. The Catacombs are now corrupted with Deathroots and Godwyn's corpse bodies, and guarded by his fervent golden Death Knights.

(P.S. - I didn't know where to put this, but "Charo" is one letter off from Charon, the ferryman of the dead in Greek mythology. Seeing as the place is connected to the Tibia Mariners, who shepherded Those Lost in Death in an age long past, I find that this connection might not be mere coincidence...)

[ghostofashina]

The dilemma with the source of golden lightning and how it can bring a hidden face of the Golden Prince.

I keep thinking about Godwyn's lightning. And something didn't sit right with me. And the more I dug into it, the more of a... revelation I had of Godwyn.

Except for Fortissax wielding "Death Lightning", I don't recall any ancient dragon with actual golden lightning. Yet, not only godwyn's lightning was described as golden, but every dragon cult incantation is golden.

According to Death Lightning:

It is said that this golden lightning was wielded by Godwyn, who befriended Fortissax.

But Vyke's dragonbolt ain't golden. And as Godwyn, he is said to be loved by a dragon. Not only that, but after we befriend Florissax, she gives us her own dragonbolt blessing, and it's not golden. The only golden dragonbolt we find, is near Godwyn's memorial, in a church with Radagon's statue (which, I have to say, I find very... odd.)

And then, we have the Gravel Stone Seal (and I believe it belonged to Godwyn at some point), which is even more odd, because it says:

The worship of the ancient dragons does not conflict with belief in the Erdtree. After all, this seal, and lightning itself, are both imbued with gold.

Except this is straight up a lie. Only Godwyn had golden lightning and, therefore, his soldiers, etc.

But there's others sources of golden lightning. And I want to mention one kind that seems to come from Godwyn himself.

The flower. We have 2 types of lightning flowers. One of them you find all over the place in the base game, called Fulgurbloom. And other kind that only grows in Lands of Shadow, called Yellow Fulgurbloom. Now this is really interesting:

Fulgurblooms are found in many places, including Farum Azula, and can be used to craft an ordinary llightning grease. However, Yellow Fulgurblooms ONLY spawn inside Godwyn's catacombs and is used to craft the dragonbolt grease, a favorite tool of Godwyn's soldiers, an item that does not exist outside the DLC.

I always thought that Fulgurblooms were responsible for the eletric goats we find everywhere, and I still think it's the case. And that this a natural item of this world. Which I don't think it's the case of the Yellow Fulgurbloom. Blossoms in the realm of shadow's underground gravesites and places struck by lightning. Imbued with yellow lightning's essence: which means, in the presence of Godwyn. Yes, resembles Miquella's lily. Or even the butterflies. Because we also have the Red Fulgurbloom and it's said "to bloom where the red lightning of the ancient dragons strikes the earth". It grows where the lightning hits. So I guess that, besides the divided corpses of the Prince of Death, these flowers can help us confirm Godwyn was there at some point.

But, once again, where does the golden lightning come from? And this is where things start to make me dizzy. Because we have a known source of golden lightning: storms. At the base game, we have storms aspects linked to a Lord that Godfrey defeated.

Then, going back to DLC, all storms aspects come from the Hornsent. The Divine Beast Warriors wield aspects of storms, such as wind, ice and lightning: golden lightning, very similar to the dragon cult incantations. They even have a golden lightning spear. Not only that, but the Divine Beast Dancing Lion also have golden lightning and one of them is actually infected with Deathblight, for whatever reason. And the Divine Beast has the exact lightning of the Death Lightning, without the corruption of deathblight.

I don't have any big conclusion so far, but the more I look into it, the less I think Godwyn's lightning had the dragons as source. Don't get me wrong: it started with the dragons, of course it did, but I guess its roots are far more deep inside a genocide of a culture: part of a genocide is also appropiation of a culture being stolen. And that, perhaps, Godwyn himself had a part on it.

Messmer had an entire storehouse with dozens of specimens. That was not made to preserve the Hornsent culture in any good means, it was a source of study and experiment. And now I start to think he wasn't alone in this quest.

[funpolishfox]

So, madness in Elden Ring only affects player-type characters, which means you can only proc madness on Gideon, when it comes to main game bosses. Of course, it's usually not a big deal, since frenzied flame is still good damage source and there are plenty other things you can proc on bosses. I don't think, there's specific lore reason as to why bosses as such Malenia or even Morgott cannot be frenzied (probably being able to proc frenzy animation on such bosses would make fights easier). But I was thinking- what if Frenzied Flame could affect other bosses? I'm speculating now more in lore way than gameplay way. After all, Frenzy Flame is all about despair, pain and misery- we can see it with Edgar after Irina's death and with merchants. It's about wanting to end all the pain, about wanting to burn down everything, so you cannot be hurt any further. It plays on emotions, especially love and care, as such case was with Vyke. Thinking about it, UndeadHumor was onto something when he made sketch with Morgott and Frenzied Flame- some demigods could be greatly influenced by it. Or rather, a specific child of Marika. Messmer. Others could probably combat it to some degree- Morgott was sealing Three Fingers away with Mogh, so it's obvious they were resisting it (and Mogh was influenced already by many other things). Radahn, Ranni and Rykard all have/had strong wills and couldn't be easily swayed. Miquella could probably be swayed, but once losing his emotions, Frenzy Flame couldn't really use him and Malenia is also strong-willed character, resorting to help from Outer Gods only as last-ditched effort. Melina obviously knows about Frenzied Flame and despises it. But Messmer? This man is already knee-deep in pain. He's been mommy's good boy for centuries long, doing war for her and getting nothing in return. Being abbanoned, scorned child, not having any place in his mother's new, perfect world. Forced to hide his serpent nature, something he couldn't control. And losing it all, once he sees his mother truly left him and choose some Tarnished over him. Why wouldn't he want to burn it all? He even states embracing oblivion in his second phase. His flame is already known as flame without honor or grace. He already brought so much pain onto everybody, including himself, he lost people important to him, he knows, he has no future outside of his crusade, which in the end, didn't earn his mother's love or favor. I might be missing some lore details, as I'm still trying to tie main game stuff with DLC revelations, but I won't lie- Messmer using both his red flames and yellow flames the same way Midra did, would be cool as hell. And yes, I am big fan of Messmer and Midra, how could you tell?

[itstheendofthegoddamnworld]

Swallowed Whole by The Flame (Messmer the Impaler x Tarnished! Reader) 10

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Summary: Messmer is stressed, and when he unravels, he becomes frustrated.

A/N: This chapter is labelled a spicy chapter 🌶️Warnings for this chapter: male masturbation

A03 link

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Chapter 10: Undoing

"Leave me."

His personal knights, and his staff hurry out at once the tornado has made its way into his chambers, a mess of red that has consumed him body and soul.

He doesn't look back to know he's alone, he hears the many footsteps leave at once, shutting the door so that he feels some level of peace wash over him.

He would hate for his men to see him like this; wracked with shame and on the path to losing it.

Messmer likes to think he's a relatively calm man, and it takes a lot to piss him off. That thing pissing him off though was running amok and battling his men, reading his books. He allowed it, allowed her despite this entire time for some absurd unknown reason.

It didn't help that he still couldn't get out of his head the way you felt.

Your soft skin, the way you felt in his arms, the memory flashed so vividly that he thought he was truly losing it. How had this Tarnished do it-- he wonders. Perhaps it was a curse to torture him forever. It could be one of the many ways.

His insides tighten, and he's half-leant against the pillars of his darkened chambers, trying to distract himself even with his cock still hard and it's not going away. No matter what he thought, there was nothing he do to distract himself.

Curse her. He thinks, wracking a hand through his wild red locks, a sheen of sweat on his forehead makes him feel as if he's just drunk the strongest alcohol and it has lit a pyre in his gut.

The heat is too intense, the serpent calls within, and he's ripping at his clothing to be rid of the confinement, discarding his helm with a thud as he throws the red mantle off him. The cooler air hits the exposed areas of his skin. Still, it is not enough. 

He can't even close his eyes without you taking a part of his mind, the way you looked up at him when he caught you, that you knew this was all just as embarrassing as how he felt inside.

It's not the only memory that comes to mind, there are many others. When you're wearing red, his colours. When you kept your promise and returned to him on the verge of death, even when you're half bleeding all over the place and you're trying to find a way to vex him.

How could he explain himself if you accidentally found out about the tent forming between his legs.

He is half human after all, but all this had still been new to him. He had his urges, but he had quelled them before they could fester. Sometimes, he gave in, but the regret hit him hard soon after. It was never about him, never what he wished for. He was a soldier and soldiers never thought for themselves.

He was somewhat disgusted in himself for feeling this way, like some carnal beast, thinking thoughts that were so mixed that it muddled his head.

He hated her, oh, he hated the way she flounced around his Keep, grinning with blood in her teeth and breaking any bone in her body for the thrill of it, but Messmer had never felt so thrilled and enticed ever in his entire existence to witness this.

The Tarnished was merely an acquaintance, not his enemy nor a friend - not that he had many of those. Could he call upon her to be his friend? 

He had witnessed first-hand the way you were blessed by his mother's golden grace, and you had not fallen to Miquella's ways. Friend or foe, you were a distraction.

Messmer slumped in defeat, closing his eye as all distractions failed, he had come to realise one thing, the thing that his mind had been trying to deny whilst his body yearned for more.

It is the greatest of defeats he feels when his hands wound their way down his stomach, across his strong thighs and finding purchase on his hardened length.

He winces immediately, trying to ease the sensitivity by rubbing himself through his loincloth It doesn't do enough to help ease it, as the guilt hits him.

Stress consumes him to think he was so foolish to have feelings like these. He curses himself, foolish and immature, yet his hand finds a way inside, holding his length as he gives long strokes.

He almost collapses to the ground at the sharp sensations, biting his bottom lip as he tries to keep his noises at bay. He runs a finger over his tip, already leaking with precum as he smears it, helping to intensify the sensitivity. 

His precum helps his hand guide along his length, urging him to continue, harder, faster strokes have him quivering and whimpering.

His eye remains shut, but it reveals the filthiest of fantasies that have him half feverish and insane.

In them all, all he sees is you.

Your face, the way you look up at him, the way he imagines what you would look like naked, drenched in sweat, in blood, beneath him or on top. His hand doesn't tire it's spurned on by what he sees, his stomach begins to twist from the upcoming release.

He's never been this close this quickly, choking on his tears as they leak from his golden eye. Bliss is on the horizon as he quickens in his strokes, biting his lip until he's sure he tastes the bitter copper. He sees her in his fantasy, bare beneath him, moaning as he takes her, and he's closer, so, so close, until he hears the whisper of his name.

"Messmer."

His orgasm comes to him like a punch to the gut he's doubled over, failing to hide his muffled moans as his hand and the ground is covered in his essence. Pearly white drops decorate his skin, the ground is marked in his shame as he collects himself, letting out a shaky moan as he comes down from his high.

He's ashamed of himself in an instant, collecting his breath, reality coming back to him that he remembers where he is. The hand not covered in his cum runs through his sweaty hair, defeat consumes him as he tells himself he will lurk in the darkness of his room for as long as need be, just so he didn't have to see her for some time.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

You don't try to think much about Messmer's abrupt departure, believing that a man as busy as himself is a means to himself. He's part god, so you tell yourself that he has things to deal with that you cannot relate to. He does have an entire Keep to run. 

Finding a nook for you to crawl yourself into, you find yourself there pouring as much into your mind, forgetting about the world around you. The hours pass, darkness swarms around you, and it's only when you yawn, looking up, do you notice how late it is.

The wick of the candle beside you has whittled down, and you need to replace it, however, your hunger gnaws at your stomach, and you think about how late it is. You think about whether Messmer is around if he's gone to bed or not, so you tell yourself perhaps it would be best to try and find him.

Scurrying around the Keep, you find his chambers, only to be surprised to find two of his black knights standing guard outside the doors. You feel intimidated, asking if Messmer is around, only for one to answer you.

"I apologise, Lady Tarnished. His Lord is not seeing anyone at this moment."

"Ah." You say, and you're uncertain what to ask next: is he feeling unwell? Has he fallen ill? "Is he alright?"

"Yes, he's... occupied in seeing an audience."

"Alright. Would he be free for a meal?" You question.

"I'm afraid his Lord has already eaten."

Oh. What were you expecting? And where did this question come from? Your cheeks feel warm from embarrassment, and before you can feel further foolishness from it all, you turn on your heel. "Tell him I bind him goodnight then."

You don't wait for their answer, for you're scurrying towards where you believe are the kitchens, bursting through and alerting the staff that remain there. The chefs give you a careful glance before you ask if there's any leftover food. You're given a simple bowl of brown meats in a broth, and a slice of cheese with some bread, leaving you to take it with you as you scurry like a rat back up towards your chambers. By the time you reach your apartments, your chest feels as if it has a pit inside, and you're feeling rather uneasy.

Still feeling self-conscious, you nibbled at your meal until you could not eat any more. You pull the servant bell, calling upon your handmaidens to pour you a bath and to leave a glass of wine for you to have to quell your nerves. How foolish you feel, believing that this stark confidence and friendliness would be accepted by Messmer. He may have allowed your protection, but to believe he would be kind and amicable back? 

Your skin feels flush and warmed to the bone when you step into your bath, leaning your head back as you try to relax. The wine you eye in your hand is almost empty as you reach towards the bottle they left for you, eyeing it carefully.

The words are strange, but your years of learning to dissect the language allowed you to realise the bottle had come from Leyndell. How it arrived in the Shadow realm was a mystery to you, but you slowly sipped it, thinking about how you could've remembered tasting it.

-

A/N: This chapter took so long to write. I've been exhausted from work that I've only been napping! I'm trying to break out of it, but it's been so tiring having no time to myself. Hopefully, things can change.

[thatboreddrake]

Okay, bare with me on this one, because I am operating on a grand total of like, two lines of dialogue and a dream: a dream of finally getting a solid-ish number on the Elden Ring Timeline!

So, the first line of dialogue, which Ranni delivers during the cutscene for the Age of Stars ending:

Now cometh the age of the stars. A thousand year voyage under the wisdom of the Moon (emphasis added)

Fine, vague, poetic.

The second line, delivered by Miquella during the fight with Promised Consort Radahn if the player is hit by the grab attack:

"I promise you, a thousand-year voyage guided by compassion."

Now, once is vague, but twice just might mean something. Could it be metaphorical for "this is gonna be a long time"? PROBABLY BUT WHO CARES!

This brings me to my first main point: we have an official time-stamp on how often ages and gods cycle in the Lands Between, presumably. This means that this is a semi-regular phenomenon which could be looked for upon its arrival. Or perhaps, this time of transition is marked by visitors:

It is said that when Oracle Envoys appear playing their pipes, they do so to herald the arrival of a new god, or age.

Anyway, this allows me to slap together a somewhat coherent timeline of events for Elden Ring (effing finally):

The age we will start with is the Age of Dragons, led by Placidusax as Elden Lord (Remembrance of the Dragonlord) with Uhl, the Fire Giant, as the vessel of the Fell God and centered on the power of the Crucible (blatant speculation but its headcanon at this point). In the last few hundred years of the Age of the Crucible, the Hornsent begin to focus their efforts on producing a viable Empyrean to ascend to godhood for the next age. Side note, but this would also be when the denizens of the Eternal Cities were working on their project with the Lord of Night.

Anyway, through one way or another, Marika is chosen by the Fingers to serve as the Greater Will's vessel in the Lands Between after her village is butchered by the Potentates. This is also approximately when a proto-Radagon enters the scene through Empyrean mitosis (Marika severed her desire for order after the death of her family as per the Minor Erdtree incantation). For a time, Marika plays along with the Hornsent, if only to establish her base of power.

Her first stop is at the Eternal Cities, where she attempts to convince the Nox to join with her in the upcoming war against the Fire Giants. The Nox reject her upcoming divinity in favor of their Lord of Night, killing proto-Radagon with the Fingerslayer Blade as a symbol of their rejection. The Greater Will does not stand for this insolence, and sends the Malformed Star Astel to devour their sky and cast them beneath the earth.

Marika then allies with the berserker warlord Hoarah Loux and begins her assault on the Fire Giants of the Mountaintops. After all, their flame would be the one thing that could threaten the Erdtree during her reign. She manages to slay Uhl in battle, and shunts proto-Radagon's soul into his body, thus birthing Radagon as a proper Lord. However, at this point, Marika is diverted from her mission by the First War of the Dragons.

Emboldened by the defeat of Placidusax's god, Bayle the Dread leads his brood of drakes in a direct assault on Farum Azula. To counteract this threat, Placidusax sends the Ancient Dragon Florissax to instruct their erstwhile human allies in the practice of Dragon Communion. Among these, the greatest knight and leader of their order was Theodorix, a troll freed from the Fire Giants during Marika's initial assault. It is during this war that Marika and Radagon bear the kindling twins, Messmer and Melina.

Where Messmer fights on the front lines alongside Radagon and Godfrey, Melina instead takes up tutelage under Maliketh, Marika's Black Blade. After the war is over, and Placidusax has had three of his heads removed, he sees that the age of the dragons has come to a close and moves Farum Azula outside of time to await the return of his god.

Keeping their momentum, Marika and her forces carry on to complete their destruction of the Fire Giants, realize that the flame cannot be put out, and leave a nameless giant in charge of tending the forge. At this point, the time of ascension arrives, and Marika ascends to godhood using Radagon as her Lord catalyst. However, afraid of exposing Radagon's true nature to their followers, Marika instead takes Godfrey as the First Elden Lord, ushering in the Age of Plenty (Blessed Dew Talisman).

With her seat of power established, Marika dispatches her champions to complete their conquest of the Lands Between. Godfrey goes south to Limgrave to do battle with the Storm Lord and the inhabitants of the Weeping Peninsula. Radagon also goes south, but stops in the swamps of Liurnia to challenge the kingdom of sorcerers, who have been united under the rule of one calling herself the Full Moon Empyrean. Messmer, meanwhile, travels back to Belurat to exact vengeance against the Hornsent for their treatment of the shamans. It was this last expedition that was closest to Queen Marika's heart, and thus were they accorded the greatest share of golden grace of any of the Erdtree's armies.

In the ensuing 700 years or so, things proceed as normal. Messmer slaughters the Divine Beasts and burns the country to ashes. Godfrey's conquest of Limgrave nears its conclusion and he sets his eyes towards the Caelid Wilds. Radagon has fought two wars in Liurnia, finally forging an alliance with the House of Caria through his marriage to Rennala. Beneath all this, an old god conspires to put its own Empyrean on the throne.

Per Prince of Death canon (it is canon to me!), Melina is selected as an Empyrean vessel by the Deathbird who pushes her towards rebellion by exposing the injustices perpetrated under Marika's rule. Melina's breaking point is when Marika abandons her own children, the twin Omens Mohg and Morgott, for the sake of keeping up appearances (or so it seems). Taking the moniker of the Gloam-Eyed Queen, Melina marches to Leyndell to cast Marika down from her throne and slay the Elden Beast with black fire.

This rebellion is stopped by Maliketh's timely intervention. He bests his former pupil in combat and, under Marika's orders, seals the Destined Death which gives her flame its deadly bite. It is at this time that the Land of Shadow becomes Shadowed, as Marika fears how Messmer may respond when he discovers that his sister has "died" in a rebellion against their mother. However, Marika's heart is not of stone. She sees anew that which had driven her daughter to such desperate measures, and vows to reexamine the fundamental tenets of the Golden Order.

Remembering what happened to the last civilization to deny the Greater Will, however, Marika banishes Godfrey and his Tarnished warriors from the Lands Between. Should another star come to punish the land, she would not have her beloved caught in the blast zone. Thus ends the Age of Plenty; Marika plucks the very concept of true death from the Elden Ring and the blessings of the Erdtree slowly begin to dry up.

Here, the Ancient Dragon Gransseax sees an opportunity to restore the Ancient Dragons to primacy in the Lands Between and assaults the very walls of Leyndell itself. However, he did not account for the tenacity of humankind, nor the power of Godfrey's son, Godwyn. Godwyn leads Marika's order to victory in this Second War of the Dragons, forging an alliance with the Ancient Dragon Fortissax.

Seeking to keep Marika loyal, the Greater Will recalls Radagon to serve as Elden Lord in Leyndell, threatening his family with true death at the hand of the Black Blade should he refuse. Together, Marika and Radagon usher a new thousand years of history, an Age of Order.

Towards the final quarter of this new age (fully guestimating here), Marika sees that she is running out of time to find a solution to the cycling of ages and gods. Conspiring with her step-daughter Ranni, she plots to use a fragment of Destined Death to sever both herself and Radagon from the Greater Will's control, if only to free them both from the curse of immortality. However, plagued by internal conflict and mistrust, Ranni takes this opportunity to free herself from the machinations of Manus Celes, a Two Fingers serving its own god. Marika is distraught as, rather than severing her own fate, she is instead left to deal with the aftermath of the death of her beloved son, Godwyn.

In a final act of desperation, seeking to end the cycle once and for all, Marika takes up her hammer and shatters the Elden Ring, that which represents order itself. Aghast at her actions, Radagon joins her inside the Erdtree, sealing the entrance using an aberrant sorcery to create a barrier of impenetrable thorns. He sought to repair the damage done to the Elden Ring, but erecting the barrier bled him nearly dry. Seeking to protect its last hope of maintaining control, the Elden Beast fuses Marika and Radagon into one and stuffs the shattered fragments of the Elden Ring into the gaping wound in their side. There, the fused, fractured deity would hang for hundreds of years, until the time for ascension came again, and the envoys arrived once more to herald the arrival of a new lord.

[tyran-the-tyranical]

Possible inspiration for Messmer

I don’t know if anyone’s come to this conclusion yet (tbh ppl probably have but ima continue anyway) , but I have a possible inspiration for Messmer: Méche and his three serpents.

There are a lot of different cultural myths that inspired Elden ring, and there’s a lot of Irish inspiration too, and I cannot read about Méche and not think Messmer was inspired by him. For instance:

“Berba — into it the three snakes which were in the heart of Méche, son of the Mórrígan, were cast, after he was killed by Mac Cecht in Mag Méchi.”

Okay, for starters, Méche is a (supposed) son of the Irish goddess of war called the Mórrígan. The issue with his birth is, as stated above, is that he was born with three snakes within his heart (or he had three hearts with a snake in each but same thing), and well doesn't Messmer also have three snakes? his two outer ones and the abyssal serpent within,

And don't get me started on the whole naming convention of Mórrígan/Méche and Marika/Messmer. But sadly for Méche this was a big no-no due to his snake's destructive nature, and as a result, they killed him and his snakes, but there's also a little more I want to delve into:

Berba (Poem 13)

The Barrow, enduring its silence,

that flows through the folk of old Ailbe;

a labour it is to learn the cause whence is called

Barrow, flower of all famous names.

No motion in it made

the ashes of Mechi the strongly smitten:

the stream made sodden and silent past recovery

the fell filth of the old serpent.

Three turns the serpent made;

it sought out the soldier to consume him;

it would have wasted by its nature all the kine

of the indolent hosts of ancient Erin.

Therefore Diancecht slew it:

there was rude reason for clean destroying it,

for preventing it for ever from wasting

above every resort, from consuming utterly.

Known to me is its grave where he cast it,

a tomb without walls or roof-tree;

its evil ashes,–no ornament to the region

found silent burial in noble Barrow.

(The Metrical Dindshenchas)

So, in this description, they describe how they 'buried' his ashes in the river Barrow, and they describe it as a sort of cleansing of his snakes due to the water being ' a tomb without walls or roof-tree.'  It kind of speaks about the water's purifying nature of the serpents' corruption. Why am I bringing this up?

Well, another major theme about Messmers' area in-game is that everything is randomly flooded; there's water everywhere around the keep (ok maybe not everywhere but u get what I mean) there are flooded areas of just water and I even think under there that there's something to do with a corpse of godwyn beneath one of the flooded areas but don't trust me 100% on that, anyway, the presence of water and especially flooding his keep and the places around it kinda calls back to Méche and his death, but idk it's probably just a coincidence since still water already has meaning in the main game with the whole scarlet rot thing and all, but I just thought it was interesting to mention.

[drenched-in-sunlight]

ok i have two anon messages, one of them i won't publish because i think it's a little mean to Godwyn and i don't want to damper ppl's fun if i can help it. i understand your frustration anon but it's sth i personally don't feel that bothered by.

the other anon contains light spoiler about Messmer so im answering it under the cut. please note that i don't mind spoilers, and though i make an effort to hide them until the DLC drops, please beware when you open the reply to my post from now on !

Light spoilers for the dlc Some of Messmer's knights abandoned him and betrayed him for being a snek boi (literally) i wonder who is his other parent, since we are certain his mother is Marika so he might be the result of Marika getting freaky with the GEQ or some serpent god. Actually it would be so hilarious and cool if messmer was born from marika in the same way Athena was born from Zeus

As I mentioned before I don't really care who is his other parent is (sorry Messmer's other parent... if you even exist 🤣 i think since he has the same butterfly motif, he should be a child solely coming from just Marika herself, like Miquella and Malenia... i need that trio so bad...), but the detail about his soldier turning on him makes me wonder if the snakes being seen as traitor to the Erdtree is something out of Marika's control. HEAR ME OUT.

I'm having this whacky idea that the Greater Will is troubled by Messmer's power and his devotion to only Marika, and not them. Plus they view Marika's affection towards him as a sign of weakness unbefitting a God (*stare at Goldmask's remark about Marika*), so they declare snakes as traitor to separate him from his mother. Marika had no choice but to send him to Land of Shadow to protect him (explain why it's stated that he fled from the Erdtree)... and he carried on fighting for her despite everything.

That would also explain why after Messmer Marika tried to distance herself from her later children, as evidently her love could become their death sentence .... or well that's where my delulu led me 🥲🥲

(that being said... if his other parent is the GEQ i think i'll be VERY invested indeed lmaooo Marika breaking hearts left and right like a normal sunday)

[katyspersonal]

There are plenty of evidences for many of these 🤔 Messmer IS a Demigod, not Demigod-adjascent like Godfrey or GEQ whatever, so it's fair to assume he was born after her ascension! And Radagon is a byproduct of her ascension! He also has red hair..

At the same time, Rykard is blond whereas being specifically Radagon's son, so Messmer could have had red locks without Radagon participating... Marika's alters genes are just odd! Meanwhile, Messmer's soldiers use the same stomp and roar attacks associated with Godfrey and he has Knights using Crucible Aspects which, again, links to Godfrey's Knights. A talisman depicting Godfrey is also found in Shadow's Keep! Messmer was certainly a product of the time before Radagon became relevant the way he is later 🤔 However, we're discussing biological parenting, Godfrey could've still been just a father figure But what Messmer and Godfrey REALLY share in common is having no ass gfgfhfjj

But the source of red locks to begin with is ALSO the curse of Fire Giants, even with Radagon, and Messmer is connected to it on multiple points! His flames curse his Fire Knights with red hair (with only Queelign being spared... so far) same as how Fire Monks and Arghanthy got red locks from Flame of Ruin, his Furnace Golems feature visage of Fell God by version of Hornsent and function on burnt sacrifices similarly to how Fire Giant summons Fell God by burning part of his body, and like Fell God Messmer is deformed and one-eyed!

The thing about Messmer though is:

If he was born with a single cursed eye that prevented Grace residing in him, that might have made him vulnerable for the powers that exist outside of Golden Light associated with Greater Will! Greater Will has a lightness Abyss at the center of itself (check Ymir's hat), and Base Serpent comes from lightless Abyss too! Messmer could've been born without the one thing preventing Base Serpent from manifesting. @sermessmer also has an interpretation that Greater Will itself had Marika birth Messmer as Base Serpent because it craved to remove the "bad" aspects of existence that contradict life and light and hoped Marika as new God could figure how to get rid of Base Serpent and I think this works too!

Then there is also the fact that Empyreans have genderbents installed (or have androgynous bodies like Malenia or Ranni), so there could've been gay sex with Gloam-Eyed Queen that did result in birth! Melina is somehow connected with GEQ's Destined Death and said to bear visions of fire like Messmer, and GEQ is connected with snakes as evidenced by Godskin Nobles having snake tail and Apostles having weapon with serpentine motif! Snake was also viewed as traitor of the Erdtree since Godfrey's Duelists, so, after war on Fire Giants but before Messmer was banished, so maybe the Snake traitor refers to Marika's conflict with GEQ?

And there is also an option that Messmer was not born Demigod but promoted to such by virtue of relation? The "Rune of Life" that is now Marika's has been the part of Elden Ring ever since Ancient Dragons, LONG before her ascension, she simply made it her symbol when she became a God! Maybe something fell on Messmer too by that effect, only, it was the power that opposes Grace's for some reason?

(I personally feel like it is a combination of things: Marika gets cursed during war with Fire Giants but it transmits to Radagon as manifestation of her order, that results in Messmer being born cursed but Godfrey was his bio father and assumed he got cucked at first gfhgj, being born without Grace results in Base Serpent torturing him)

[surelyspacejunk]

Messmer & Melina Speculation

After playing the DLC, I'm starting to wonder if both Messmer and Melina were sired by Marika and two other gods who weren't Radagon. A few DLC spoilers and big speculations under the cut:

If we are to take the butterfly theories to heart, the introduction of a the black pyrefly in the DLC would support that there are four siblings born from a union of gods. Messmer's Kindling also states that he has a sister who also bore visions of fire; supporting that they are all siblings.

Unlike the twins though, Messmer and Melina seem to have been completely glossed over in the Lands Between.

I'm guessing it's because they both have traits that simply could not have let them exist within the Golden Order; these traits being their affinity towards fire and traits of The Gelmir Serpent (Messmer) and the Gloam-Eyed Queen (Melina.)

Marika/Radagon has already been seen settling disputes through unions with the Carians. Even the Golden Order created a union with the dragons when they realized they could not defeat them. Could Marika have started the pattern of creating truces and betrayal before the creation of the Golden Order? The Hornsent Grandam calls Marika a strumpet, and while she could just be slutshaming Marika, could there be some implication that Marika had relations that were looked down upon?

When you play the DLC, you learn that Messmer is still devoted to Marika, while the latter seems to have abandoned him while being the one responsible for his bloody campaign. While it's obvious to see why the Hornsent despise him, most accounts show that he commanded great loyalty from his men and had genuine friendships with Gaius and Radahn. All this makes me believe that Marika got rid of two birds with one stone, by sending her Messmer who could have never found a place in her order away to do her dirty work of enacting her revenge and solidifying her rule.

As for Melina, the circumstances of her birth seem a little shaky and I don't really have a timeline for when she could have come to existence. That said, her color scheme in the Frenzy ending, the color of her eyes and her quest to deliver destined death seem to tie her to the Gloam-Eyed Queen. The butterflies and Marika/Radagon being able to sire her either way makes it seem that this might not be too crazy but idk, im extremely sleepy now from staying up too late playing this game and theorycrafting.

Anyways those are just some thoughts from a sleepdrunk fan, what do you guys think?

[blasphemousclaw]

random thought about Hornsent… I’d been thinking the reason why he invades us in Rauh after we help him defeat Messmer was because of this post-Messmer dialogue:

“Yet unquenched remains my thirst for revenge. The death of Messmer was merely the start. Now comes the piper to collect from Marika, her offspring, and all the Erdtree's denizens... In vengeance for the flames, my blade I wield...”

and he is counting us amongst the “Erdtree’s denizens, based on the first thing he says to us:

“Your kind are not forgiven. The Erdtree is my people's enemy. By Marika long betray'd, set aflame. I believe Miquella's apologies, when he says our delivery will come. But never will I see your kind as worthy.”

so basically I was like, well obviously he’d try to pick us off if he’s just going sicko mode on anyone associated with the Erdtree… but I thought of another interpretation that I feel like might make even more sense, and it has to do with Miquella:

The charm Miquella placed over his followers was specifically soothing all their violent impulses — for Hornsent, the charm didn’t make him forget his hatred towards Messmer and Marika, but it did make him forget the oath of vengeance he swore!

“Do you presume us allies, even now? Though Miquella’s spell is newly broken? I must profess, the spell mattered little. Uphold his covenant Miquella shall, and in godhood redeem our rueful clan. Then Marika, and vilest Erdtree both, will at last be from divinity wrench’d. And surely I... contented I will be.

But first, clear sounds the call of vengeance. The impaler, Messmer, must pay his due. In vengeance for the flames, my blade I wield… How could I allow myself to forget? Revenge alone assures me peace of mind.”

at this point, Hornsent still expects Miquella to honor his promise to redeem his people. But if we help him defeat Messmer, his thirst for revenge isn’t quenched, but invigorated:

“If Miquella's redemption soothes the ache... that throbs within, demanding blessed vengeance... Then I wish not to be by him redeemed.”

He decides that no, actually, I don’t want Miquella’s redemption if it comes at the cost of my sacred revenge quest! I think Hornsent realized that if Miquella ascends to godhood, it will be just like it was when he was under his charm, and he’ll forget his oath once again, but this time, permanently. So maybe that’s why he’s specifically defending the staircase leading to Romina’s arena… maybe he’s defending the Sealing Tree, trying to keep Enir-Ilim sealed so Miquella can’t walk through the Divine Gate and ascend to godhood? How crazy would that be… Hornsent giving up a chance at redemption for his people and keeping his beloved tower sealed just so he can keep killing… yeah I think that’s absolutely in character

[subzeroparade]

*chant* New fic! New fic! New fic!

So excited you’ve posted a new ER fic, and with a teaser for more to come! 🎉🎉🎉

Since it’s been awhile, maybe I poke your brain on what your thoughts on the DLC are (game play, lord, sceneries, anything you’d like to share with us really)? Has it changed your headcanon on any of the characters, or did you find ways to incorporate the new lores into your interpretations? Most importantly, did you have fun?

*tagged for spoilers but just in case - spoilers •‿•*

Did I enjoy it? YES. Did I have qualms with some gameplay bits? YES but I’m a filthy casual on NG+2 or something and generally Not Good at Game. But I beat it. 

As for lore, it’s really a mixed bag. There’s a ton of stuff I’m delighted to have new or expanded lore for - Marika’s origins, Belurat and the entirety of Hornsent culture, Godwyn’s Death Knights, BAYLE???? VILE BAYLE!!!! etc etc (sometimes I listen to Igon’s voice lines just to psych myself up for real life). There are things I need to adjust my headcanon for a little, as well - St Trina, for example, has always been a facet of Miquella himself to me, a sort of alter ego he willingly takes on, which is how I enjoyed writing her in fic. To have her elaborated here as a separate person means taking that a little further if I write him/her/them again, but I think the parallel it draws between Marika/Radagon is hugely interesting as well.  

iirc there are a couple of instances in the base game where lore almost contradicts itself, but I think in some cases the DLC got a little sloppy. The timeline is also way foggier to me now than it was previously. I was a big fan of the idea that Messmer was entirely unknown to his siblings, written out of history after the Crusade (predating Marika ushering in the Golden Age of the Erdtree), but that contradicts the lore we get on Gaius and Radahn as they’re both personally acquainted with Messmer, and makes me wonder which of the other demigods might’ve been aware of him, and under what pretences might they have met. It makes for a lot of fic ideation, but I’m of the opinion that if you’re writing fic, sticking too closely to (the sometimes unhelpful) lore will stultify the work; so I’m trying to pluck little instances of new lore that interest me to bolster the story I want to tell.  

Like most of the fandom I have a huge beef with Promised Consort Radahn, and I’m still struggling with how to work that into my headcanon. To me, there is simply no reason for it. There are no indications of it in the base game, and you have to tie yourself into continuity knots for it to make any sense - and that’s just bad writing. I’m not against retconning things if they serve a purpose, but this was neither useful nor necessary (nor well done), and that’s fundamentally disappointing for a Fromsoft game. The more people aggressively try and justify it, the more I feel like the potential explanations unravel. If we’re going along with the assumption that Miquella *needs* a lord to ascend, we’ve had Candidate #1 since the base game: Godwyn. Half of what we know about base-game Miquella is that he spent time and resources trying to grant Godwyn some form of peace, while his hideous fate hangs over the narrative in perpetuity. And we give Radahn closure literally in the first act of the game. I’m a firm believer in Miquella knowing 100% what he’s about, but in this singular instance blinded by love for Godwyn and an all-consuming desire to *fix this* by resurrecting some nightmarish, malformed version of him. There’s so much juicy story to be told in Miquella refusing to acknowledge the thing he brought back is not his brother, and for all that godhood and remaking the world into utter passivity can do, it can’t retrieve Godwyn’s irretrievable soul. All that to say, I’d even take Malenia as his promised consort - it would made more sense than Radahn, too.

Anyway tldr I don’t have to think about how disappointing that is now, because the fic I’m working on is around Marika’s ascension, and more specifically Messmer and Melina’s upbringing. There’s another on the backburner but I’m on the fence about it since it hasn’t reached an outline stage yet, and I don’t start anything unless I am 100% sure I know how to finish it, and finish it well ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Ty for the ask! As is the case with me, the rest of my musings on the lore come through in fic writing, because those are the texts dumps I’m good at. Here’s a little (young) Melina and Messmer wip as thanks. 

[dragon-communion]

Concept:

All of Marika's children are born cursed in some way. Messmer's snake business. Melina's rune from birth was probably Destined Death and its blackflame. The omen twins and their blood. Miquella's eternal youth/oblivion and weird blood. Malenia's rot.

I don't think Radagon's kids were cursed as badly, and I actually blame most of their issues on him being the world's worst transmasc father. (/j)

So where does that leave Godwyn? Obviously his fate was to be the first to die and gestate deathblight, but that's all to blame on Marika messing with the Elden Ring as opposed to anything innate about his birth. And the kids we can 100% confirm as belonging to Godfrey show signs of the Crucible, which he's intimately and thematically associated with.

I really love the idea that Godwyn was always a merman, but if I look at him critically using what I know about the base game, I don't think it entirely makes sense? Crucible influence seems to make everything revert to a dragon. Reptilian tails, feathered wings, horns, breath attacks. Devolved dragons, sure, but it's really obvious to me when looking at some of the more elaborate Misbegotten as an example. Mohg and Morgott are also two halves of a whole- Mohg got the wings, Morgott got the tail.

You could argue the scaly tail is draconic, but I don't know. We tragically don't really get any sea monsters in Elden Ring, and even the giant serpent lives in a volcano. We've got some land octopus things, some crabs. The Tibia Mariners sort of count.

I think Godwyn was at least marketed to the public as the most perfect man alive, so it'd make sense if he was just an unblemished Adonis and his curse was simply a matter of time, but that feels weird considering the rest of Marika's direct children explicitly have strange powers or deformities or both.

If we assume Castle Sol was his (part of me wants to think it belonged to Miquella but who can say), it's hard to tell if the eclipse iconography came before or after Godwyn's death. If it existed before, there's a good chance the Eclipse Shotel was actually his weapon. If the eclipse iconography came after his death, as part of their continued attempts to resurrect their lord, then Godwyn himself was not associated with the fucked up necromancy sun during his lifetime.

It's also worth noting that Castle Sol is only accessible by passing through the Forbidden Lands, the entire village of Zamor, an archer golem, and a gauntlet of Fire Monks, so anyone who lived there would've been shoved in the back of Marika's proverbial closet. The Mountaintops were probably locked down the second Marika wiped out the giants, if not during or before to bottleneck resources, so nobody would be visiting casually for a light chat and tea.

(As a side note, I really have to wonder how they feed anyone up there. Where's the farms? The livestock and game? Did the village of Zamor serve Castle Sol in any way? Does the massive graveyard up there belong to the astrologers, or the dead from the war against the giants? Both? Did Marika have an alliance with the ice dragons too? What's Borealis's position in the incredibly tense sociopolitical landscape of the Mountaintops???)

All of that taken together, it's not unreasonable to think that Castle Sol could be where Marika hid her strange merman son, but it's hard to draw any definitive conclusions. The duke of that castle would be in a position to oversee the continued imprisonment of the last Fire Giant as well as the Fire Monks and their prisoners, but given the castle's position so far from the fort I'm inclined to think the castle has more to do with the huge graveyard next to it.

I need to examine the architecture for clues as to when it was built and by whom, I think, because part of me wants to say it belonged to the astrologers, and that would make some sense. On first impression though I was reminded a lot of what it felt like to enter Radahn's fort for some reason. I'll come back to this.

[the-odd-laundromat]

On Miquella, St. Trina, and Spirits

Warning, this is a fairly long post. Best buckle up.

I've started to let my imagination wander of late about Miquella, St. Trina, and spirit ashes within the lore of Elden Ring and its DLC. I made this for fun and I don't intend it in serious spirit. If this doesn't line up with your own theories or headcanons, that's cool. There are billions of people on the planet, and some of us are bound to disagree. Let's all be civil about it, please. (Do note this is just my personal blog, not dedicated exclusively to ER).

My theory is this: Apart from sleep (through St. Trina), Unalloyed Gold and the Haligtree, Miquella holds dominion over spirits; specifically Torrent, Spirit Ashes and spirit bosses you fight.

Miquella fits, if abstractly, into Elden Ring's mythological basis. He parallels the god Baldr from Norse myth, already an influence on Elden Ring (e.g., The Erdtree = Yggdrasil) in some ways: Baldr was associated with light and all good things, and was specifically noted to be beloved by all. Baldr's death (though that's Godwyn in ER) triggers Ragnarok. Baldr is among the gods who survive and return to a renewed, clean-slate world (Miquella wants to create a new world order with the Haligtree).

Now, I'll go out on a limb and propose that he also parallels Apollo of Greek myth. Apollo wasn't specifically beloved by all (I don't think), but he was significantly venerated, comparably to big-shots like Zeus, Athena, Aphrodite, and Hermes. He's also associated with light (one of his most common epithets is Phoebus Apollo, meaning Shining or Radiant Apollo), and is a twin (granted, Apollo and Artemis are rather different to Miq and Malenia). In the DLC trailer, Miquella glows, and the camera cuts immediately to a bright light bathing the strangler-fig tree (nature unknown) from behind.

Now comes the fun part: The connection between music, death, and sleep. Apollo is also famously a god of music, and in Elden Ring, spirits are also associated with it. You summon spirits in combat with the Spirit-Calling Bell, and Melina gives you the Spectral Steed Whistle to summon Torrent (who some speculate Miquella is the "original master" of, as supported by promotional art for the DLC). Curiously, Miquella's alter ego St. Trina is also associated with music: One of their titles is Saint Trina of the Cradlesong, and as mentioned in a cut quest, Miquella, as St. Trina, supposedly sang a lullaby to the Frenzied Flame Merchants to ease their suffering. To my knowledge, no other figure has such an association to music.

Fittingly for a game constantly trying to kill you, Elden Ring is in no shortage of death gods and suchlike figures. Maliketh and Godwyn may be considered death gods through their relation to Deathroot/the Rune of Death, you have the Deathbirds/Twinbird and the Gloam-Eyed Queen and the Ancestor Spirit, Ghostflame and Blackflame and the Frenzied Flame - heck, Malenia/the Scarlet Rot God could even qualify, as a harbinger of decay and apocalypse. My proposition is that Miquella is or will become another death god, but of merciful death, of deathlike sleep and the peaceful dream of oblivion - hence his connection to the Shadow Realm. And potentially the first spirit tuner - Hewg tutors Roderika because he's "indebted to a spirit tuner [he] met long ago". After all, in Greek mythology, Sleep (Hypnos) is brother to Death (Thanatos).

Are there holes in this? Yeah, probably. Will the DLC canon crush this theory under Messmer's open-toed cowboy boots? Most definitely. That's okay. Part of the fun of speculation is seeing just how crazy you can get with it. Sorry this is so long-winded. I hope you enjoyed this deranged romp through the mythology of this super cool video game.